Staffing a Billion Dollar Industry
Darin White and Kirk Wakefield talk about preparing college students to work in the professional world of sports.
Sports is a billion dollar industry. And while we all watch our favorite team on TV, few of us really know all the work that is going on behind-the-scenes to make that happen.
Today, we’re talking to two professors who are preparing students for jobs in the professional sports world. Darin White is the Executive Director of the Center for Sports Analytics and Samford University and Kirk Wakefield is the Executive Director of the Sports, Strategy, and Sales program at Baylor University.
Together, they’re going to walk about the money behind the game and the future men and women who are about to enter this profession…
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Episode Transcript
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Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the faith driven athlete podcast, as we always have. We have another special edition. I say that every time. So you can see how special is it if you say that every single time and yet it is. And we're going to be talking about a topic here in the world of sports with two men that are driven by their faith, that are going to give us a different perspective on how we think about the business and the numbers behind sports. And this has been interesting to me is a thought ahead to this podcast, my wife, Kimberly and my three boys and I just watched Moneyball trying to understand that there's such a thing as sports analytics. It can actually help a team to win. And we all know that there's a lot of money that is in the sports world. We know about TV rights. We know that those athletes that we watch on TV get paid a lot of money. We know that there's a lot of money for universities. And today we're going to talk a little bit about the business of sports from two guys, really serious about their faith, really serious about their craft. And we're going to introduce each in turn. I'm going to start off with Dr. Darin White. Darin is the chair of Entrepreneurship Management and Marketing, which I love because many of you have come over to the faith driven athlete podcast from the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. And so we've got a guy who's the chair of Entrepreneurship Management and marketing at Stanford University in Birmingham, Alabama. And he has done a lot of really interesting work in his past as an athlete and as a coach and then as the executive director of Stanford University's Center for Sports Analytics. And I'm looking through his bio. He's worked with some of the most amazing sports teams that we all know in the NFL and Major League Baseball, MLS. NBA has worked with the Cowboys are in Munich. My kids went on a pilgrimage to go see the Bayern Munich stadium, which is awesome, the Dolphins, the Falcons, Atlanta, United, NASCAR folks, a whole bunch of people. But I actually I want to start off there and ask you about something that I found out about you, that you served as a judge for the Yahoo! Sports Technology Awards gala, the Oscars of Sports Technology in London. What was that about? Who won? What were you doing there?
Darin White: Yeah. So every year they have the competition for you, just really encouraging innovation, technological innovation in the world of sports. And pretty remarkable some of the things that are being done now and using technology and sports in various ways. And so it's an annual event that's it's in May and it's in London every year. And so there's multiple categories. But some of you had like FIFA won an award in the last few years. Wimbledon's one one one of the NBA teams out on the West Coast can't remember which one it was. I think Golden State Warriors, they won an award, the Tour de France.
Henry Kaestner: How do you win an award? Tell me more. I'm a huge Warriors fan, so you got me. What do they do that was innovative and different from everybody else?
Darin White: Yeah, well, so like, for example, one category might be how are you using technology to engage fans and really bring the fan into the through social media or through apps or through virtual reality. And so there's just a lot of different ways that teams, organizations are using technology to improve that fan experience in venue or while you're watching on TV. And so if you've done something pretty cool and you think it's neat, you can submit it. And so teams from all around the world submit every year. And then the judge panel, we look them over and ultimately we make the award.
Henry Kaestner: OK, I want to stay on that concept here just a little bit more. A lot of us have been hearing about 5G in the way that's going to be impacting the way we interface with sports. You've been watching these trends, even consulting with a bunch of these teams. What do you think is going to be different about the way that my boys and I watch sports and five years?
Darin White: Well, I think that, of course, at Stanford, we have the Center for Sports Analytics and so we're hedging their bets big time, that data is going to become more and more a part of the fan experience. And I think you're going to see that as we continue to progress. You're going to see more and more data and analytics coming into the viewing experience. And so I was just watching a Bundesliga game, for example, on Saturday, and it was so neat. Some of the things that they're now doing is you're watching the soccer and some of the things that you get to see that are coming at us from an analytic perspective. So that's definitely going to be one of the big changes as we move forward is more and more analytics are going to inform our viewing experience.
Henry Kaestner: I want to ask you one thing, though, Darin, and that is on the sports analytics side. Malcolm Gladwell had a podcast interview that I listened to where he talked about the underhand free throw shot. You're Sports analytics guy. And he was making the case that Rick Berry and others were right when they went ahead and shot free throws. Underhanded. Is that true? And is there any other parallel that you've seen in other sports where sports analytics have changed the way that the game is played?
Darin White: To answer your first question, I have absolutely no idea. OK, I have I don't have I don't have the data to look at on that one. Now you're going to provide me some data will be a data to dove into it. It'll be a fun project, actually. So that's what we're engaged in, all sorts of projects like that. For example, right now we're looking at the impact of home court advantage across all the college sports and how that should play into the seeding of national tournaments.
Darin White: That's a good example of something we're looking at right now. But yeah, as far as a sport that's been probably impacted the most from analytics, that would be baseball. It's been around in baseball longer and MLB teams have invested more in analytics than any of the other sports. I think you're going to see it happening in the other sports and you already are to some degree. But if you look, for example, at the defensive formations that MLB teams have played over the last hundred years, really up until about 10 years ago, there was just a very few teams that ever tried anything different than your basic sort of four infielders and three outfielders, sort of an idea. And last year, if you go back and look at it, it was in the thousands, the number of different defensive formations that MLB teams employed in different situations. And so and again, that's a really relatively new in baseball.
Henry Kaestner: So tell me more about that. I used to be much more of a baseball fan than I am right now. And so I didn't see much of that happening over the last year. So are you saying that instead of just third base shortstop, second base, first base, right, left, center field, they're mixing around at four outfielders.
And I'm like, big time.
Really?
Yeah, I like little sometimes take an infielder and drop them into the outfield. They'll sometimes move the second baseman over onto the other side of the diamond. And the first baseman all the way, almost to second base is where there's almost no one on the right side. And it goes on and on and on. It's gotten down to the level now where even the outfielders are being told where to be exactly on the field. I mean, like take two steps to the right sort of thing. I mean, because they've done enough analytics to know what the likelihood of where the ball is going to end up based on the pitch that's coming. And so it's totally changed baseball.
Henry Kaestner: So Kirk I want to go over to you and I want to stay with you for a little bit. We're talking about this concept of a flywheel. So you're a guy that's been involved in really looking at the science in the business of sports sponsorship and sales at Baylor, which is just big time sports. And you've not only done fan research at Baylor, but you've gone ahead and taking your craft and you go to the NBA and NFL and MLB and NASCAR. Tell us a little bit about what you're seeing from your perspective, as you have just looked at trends of where fans are going and behavior. What are some key things that you're seeing that maybe are going to change our experience and how we experience sports?
Kirk Wakefield: Well, a couple of different angles that make me think of the person on the flywheel idea is that always strikes me as students and you can remember when you're in school. But I remember students will say things like, I really wanna do something creative or in marketing or something. And you go, well, that's great. But the way you get to be creative is by knowing everything else that's going on. So you know what the new thing is that takes a while to know enough about a certain discipline or certain area that you can be the one with the next great idea for a new restaurant or whatever it is. Right. So, you know, it's taken there in a few years, a little bit of vintage style that we are now to know what we're doing, what's on the horizon. What I think about is the fact we're doing our own little podcast coming up soon with the head of commercial research for F1. And we're going to do some polling of F1 fans and one of the questions that we're going to ask them and then share the exciting results. As for what sports is watching the game on TV, as good or better than attending or which ones? So if you had a ticket to a game, depending dependable where you're sitting, but for the upper bowl, for what sports would you just assume, frankly? Watch it at home if you're in the upper bowl, if you will, compared to not. And one of the things we think that for and what you're seeing is, you know, for a lot of games, if I'm going to sit up in the rafters, you know what? The experience is really pretty decent at all on my seventy five inch screen TV or whatever you have now. And as those prices keep dropping still and that tech improves question you asked earlier, how's 5G going to influence things? The way that's going to influence its two biggest things I've heard. In fact, our son is the newest S3 director coming on board Lane Wakefield just was telling me that was think about redoing their website entrepreneurs, that the next thing with the five G is video speed and voice control.
So what I picture that meaning is you're in a game or wherever you are, and just like we do now with a better not say her name because I got one here. If I say that right, then I just want to say, hey, show me that last replay. Yeah, you're right. And so you're doing it on your phone, you're at the game or you're not in the game. Doesn't matter. Show me that no matter what time do you bring to us.
Henry Kaestner: So it's interesting. You talk about F1, they're going to be some number of F1 fans are going to take issue with this. I would say that F1 is one of those instances where I would enjoy it at home. And I'll tell you just a quick plug. We've been really, really impressed with the drive to Survive Netflix series that shows the life behind the scenes of F1. There are some very colorful language in it, but if you can get beyond that, it really has made my whole family and surprisingly, my wife is not a motor sports fan fascinated by the world of F1. So I want to start with you. You have a sports strategy and sales program at Baylor. How do you come to do that? And what is that program about?
Kirk Wakefield: Yeah, so back in 2002, when I started as a department chair, Baylor Marketing Department came in in part to help come up with sports something. Right. So that was the rage. Still kind of is the rage now. But I knew this. We didn't want to start a sport management program. No one hires a manager of sports out of college. So what should that be as the Lord would have it? Dairyland us, who has been selling sponsorships and bailout politics for 19 years, mind you, was some tough years to sell and he wanted to move over the academic side. So we put sales and sports my research in consumer behavior, background and psychology and so on together and had the idea.
But then and here's the entrepreneurial tip I would give that I'm sure many of the listeners already know. But before we got going, we first went to prospective buyers, if you will. We went to the San Antonio Spurs where we had and then talked with our CEO and said, if we did this, would you? And what were some of those ifs? Yeah.
So if we had a program in sports sales for sponsorship and sales, would you take our interns and would you hire our products, if you will? Would you hire our students? And so Rus Bookbinder was zero now as the head of San Antonio Sports Commission. But I remember he said, yes, as long as you promise to give us the best ones. And we said, sure, done. No, we went around the rest of the state and said the same thing, basically. Yeah. And I asked if we did this, would you? So we've called it one of our other colleagues kind of dubbed us somewhat the three D approach of demand. So the demand from consumers to the students, the demand from the industry, sports industry, if you will, and then kind of demand, if you will, or even supply of professors, you know, who's going to pull this off. Right. So any firm begi ask that question. You got the demand from two different sectors. Well, now, are we going to go to supply on that good news as we were?
Henry Kaestner: So so that's great. There's a lot of parallels, of course, there with with just business is going out to your prospective customers and and saying, what do you need? And if we built this, would you buy it in your instance that not only are you getting people who are going to potentially be hiring your students, by the way. So we've established that the Spurs get your top candidates. Did the Mavs then get your second tier?
Kirk Wakefield: Yeah, well, actually, they'd both been great partners. Pretty much all the teams in Texas are well, we call Spurs Baylor South because they hire so many over the years. But the Mavericks have hired I don't know, it's a lot I'd have to think good would count them. So certainly in proximity to Waco, Texas, at heart a lot, just like I'm sure of it there. And it's more likely going to be than a few states of ours of where you're at it. But I think what's great, in fact, Darin and I have said, you have said the same. When we explain why things have gone well, we just kind of feel like the story of Joseph. We just God was with him on a smarter than the next dog, but God was just with us and organized and orchestrated and engineered circumstances and we just pay attention and follow.
Justin Forman: So, Kirk, one of the things I've heard you talk about is just revenue obviously is just the lifeblood of so much this in sports. Could you paint a perspective for us of just how much growth there has been and just the world of sports? How much revenue are we talking about? What's the size of just the economy, if you will, around sports?
Kirk Wakefield: Yeah, I don't know the exact number anymore. There may have it struck the top of his head, but I was going to say it's big.
Justin Forman: Yeah, well, could you shift maybe then to point perspective, it just maybe the rate of growth that we've seen, how are we outpacing other areas, industry sectors? Is that what's kind of creating the demand to staff this industry at that level?
Kirk Wakefield: Yeah. An answer slightly different way. I think everybody that's listening knows sports is huge, so it's not like we have to make that case. I think what is more interesting is what we're going to see in the next 10 years, starting to do some research on location based entertainment, LBE, and that's expected to grow to a 12 billion dollar business. I think it is by 2023. Business growth is spurred by millennials who want in real life they want in real life experiences. So we've had so much tech in front of us. There's a huge appetite for location based experiences otherwise known as entertainment sports. But concerts, trips, something in real life is everything we have. So virtual. Not to mention we've been zoomed out of it in the last three months. Right. But this was going on even before that. So I think what you're going to see is a huge uptick and people wanting experiences, which includes sports, there's going to have to have the technology piece there, because what good is if I can't share with my friends where I am, what cool stuff I'm doing.
Justin Forman: So put a little more skin on that, because, I mean, when people think experiences around sports these days, they might think of the pregame past on the sideline, the field pass. I mean, that's been something that's got to be a small piece of the revenue, maybe a big piece of the marketing. But what are some of the other things that you're seeing this move into?
Kirk Wakefield: Some of the trends that we're seeing now. I heard some love for soccer across Europe and so forth, but the big trend now is to turn into destination entertainment locations. So Barca redid camp nou and now it's a huge complex. Most everybody now that's got any kind of money. Same thing at Wrigley. Now, they bought out the whole section of town around Wrigley and there's hotels and restaurants and everything.
So you come there not just for the game, for crying out loud. You're coming there for a couple of days. Maybe you're more and more to come before the game. After the game, you're just coming to the game. And that's a big shift in Europe. I think and Darin can talk more about this than I think. But I remember what the guys at Farsad told us, that the average person arrived like less than 30 minutes before a match. And then left directly after. So, yeah, one hundred thousand people, so nice.
Justin Forman: So, Darin, when you think about this, if you put your investor hat on for a minute and you were talking through the different sports, we were talking about F1, we're talking about all these different things. Who do you think has the most to gain if you're a buyer here who's somebody that has a brighter future than others in terms of leagues and college sports, pro sports? Which one do you think has a greater potential than the others?
Darin White: Yeah, if you were to consider all your different sports leagues as stocks, the two that to me jump out for sure that you'd want to invest in right now would be the NBA, MLS here in the United States. And that's primarily because, number one, you're seeing on the MLS side, you're seeing an incredible growth in soccer. The younger generation, Gen Z particularly, is very interested in soccer at large, large numbers, much more so than any generation before. The MLS is doing well as a result. And then with the NBA, you've got and really with MLS as well, both of those organizations, the average age of your fan is much younger than like, for example, the MLB for say so. MLS and NBA both have a very bright future. You also have a lot of global expansion possibilities with those two sports as well. And so there's just from a revenue perspective, there's a lot of opportunity for more millions and millions of new fans to come into the fold over the next 10 to 15 years.
Justin Forman: In the MLS front, we've seen a lot of even former athletes get into purchasing one. I think you I just saw the announcement that Kevin Durant bought into one of the MLS teams? What do you think is behind that? Is it so celebrity driven, ownership connection, community driven that those guys are getting into it, or are they seeing some of the same things you are?
Darin White: Yeah, I think what MLS brings to the table is, again, a very different sort of feel from the other the big four. They're bringing that European energy type of experience. So from a fan experience, going to a professional soccer match feels very different than going to a football game or a hockey game. I go to the Iron Bowl almost every year and I love the Iron Bowl being from Birmingham, Alabama. But it's very different when you go to an Atlanta United game and Mercedes and you got 50 to 60 thousand people and you've got the scarves and the singing and the it's just a completely different culture and different feel. And that global connectedness of the sport of soccer is again very appealing to the younger generation, Gen Z. They hunger for that global connection in MLS is really bringing that to the table.
Kirk Wakefield: Yeah, I agree with that. Going to soccer games. I've done some in there and you may have done the same, but in the U.K. and then we kind of copy. This is one of the few things where the US we kind of copy what we're seeing over in the other countries. But yeah, fans don't go to a soccer game to watch. Right. Like you do an NFL game, really an NBA game, which I totally agree with, Darin said on the two leagues. But MLS game or soccer game, you're part of the action really in many ways.
Darin White: Yeah, and, you know, really, you know, an NFL game, NBA game, a lot of the American sports, the environment almost feels artificial, is being created by the marketing team, whereas you go to a soccer match and it is completely authentic, totally authentic. And again, back to the we've done quite a bit of research. We recently did a project with Coca-Cola where we did some research around Generation Z in fandom, specifically Generation Z. And one of the things that we know about generations is they are hungry for authenticity, big time, hungry for authenticity. And again, soccer brings that to the table in a way that other sports really don't tell me more about that.
Henry Kaestner: I'm trying to get my arms around that. I had been to one big time football match in the UK. It was Chelsea playing Inter Milan? And I remember the feeling in the singing and things like that. But aren't there also elements of that in the student section of football games? Or and maybe that's what you're talking about, is just that in football it tends to be relegated more to the student sections where people are more involved. But riff on that a little bit more about getting a stadium of seventy five thousand American football fans versus a stadium of seventy five thousand European football fans.
Darin White: I would say college football probably is the closest to a European soccer match in terms of because of the connectedness you're when it comes to a college football team, you have a level of connection to that team that is typically very different than you do if you're an NHL team or your NBA team. And the same is true of European football, European football, your dad and your granddad and your great granddad. And it's his rival. Yeah. Is all that. So really, the two are very similar in that nature.
Henry Kaestner: Yeah. Are there ways to take some of these other sports in to introduce that, or is it just I guess that comes back to your authentic thing, that maybe it comes across as too contrived to make an NHL San Jose Sharks game feel like an animal on AC Milan match.
Darin White: What do you think? What do you think on that one, Kirk?
Kirk Wakefield: Yeah, I'm going to say that if you think about America's pastime, Major League Baseball, what are they going to do? Because right now, their average age of their fan is, I think, deceased. I'm just kidding. Anyway, it's old. Well, you've seen some of the jokes about if they require only twenty five percent attendance, will that change anything? So, by the way, and I love going to the baseball games just saying. So your question was, can other major league sports learn something and adapt something from, you know, the more engaged sports, particularly soccer euro style? And I think it's possible. Major League Baseball has, of course, been the dodgiest, if you will, but if they are actually willing to adjust the game of cricket. So cricket, there's a long match days long. Apparently there's still a thing. Some places I've never been to one that long. However, they've adjusted it now to a three hour game. It's just like going to a baseball game here, except for more fun in some ways. So the point is, if cricket can move from three days to three hours, is there any way that baseball could make some similar adjustments to make it to where the younger generations would see it as a fun, engaging, more part of the action like cricket in the UK? Would you call that short form? But anyway, they'd have to make some serious changes now if they're willing to or not.
Justin Forman: One of the things you talk about, the tribal nature of it, I know one of the things I'm pretty passionate about right now, just in light of recent events in our country, is just the corporate social responsibility that each team university might have. And maybe it's even a way to reconnect the community to their tribe, to their university there. Could you find that a little bit? What kind of opportunity is there for these programs and teams to reconnect and see?
Kirk Wakefield: I think like everything we do, I guess there's a spiritual element to this question in particular. But same as for Darinn and me. Why we have our programs is really to instill integrity and help people live lives of faith. Back to the sustainability issue. I think that conservative Christians stereotype and I am one so seeded to higher ground on environmentalism and sustainability and so on to Progressive's. And I said, yeah, hey, we don't worship the world.
We don't worship the Earth. Maybe I do or don't believe in global warming, whatever. But I think that's missing perhaps the broader opportunity and the opportunity to speak into an important space, which is I think we can all agree that we should be good stewards of whatever we have liberals. Conservatives ought to both be able to agree we should be good stewards of whatever God has given us. So for sustainability issues, what better time is there now than that? Just released an article on Forbes.com today on this very issue, which is aren't there ways that corporate partners can team with sports properties to. Brand communicate ways to reduce waste, conserve energy, stay healthy. A number of things that would make our environment, our world better and reach sustainability goals and improve our positioning in the minds of probably everybody.
Henry Kaestner: Hmm. Especially in light of what you're talking about with Gen Z looking for a different type of experience and understanding, and maybe some of those sustainability concerns would be different for this newer generation of sports fans that are attending sports events. So let's talk a little bit more about that newer generation. So not only are you professionals in sports marketing and sales and sports analytics, but you're also teachers, you're educators. You're seeing 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds coming through your programs. And you're not just in any programs. You're at two of the largest faith driven universities in America. So tell us a little bit about how each of your faith and we'll stay with you, Kirk, how each of your faith informs the way that you look at the world of sports and the way you teach kids.
Kirk Wakefield: Yeah, great question. So I know both Baylor and Samford are similar and that we integrate faith with learning they're not two separate things. So that's number one. Those two things go side by side. It's also similar, if you will, with science. Right. So, you know, you can believe in science and faith makes me think of podcasts. I listen to the other day from Bible logos, I believe Tim Keller and the head of the NIH. So we see science learning. Faith does all go together. My own motivation and our express purpose for our program is to instill integrity in the business of sports and entertainment.
And you do that that one student at a time by recruiting people who are identifying with your goals of living lives, of integrity, integrated lives. That means faith with your work. And then it's our great opportunity to model that. And then I think the best part for me, I bet Darin say the same best part for us is after they graduate. And then so now, since the first graduates in six were actually organizing gym class reunions, we did one the summer work. So great. Now we're doing them by pairs of years and had class captains and they're pulling them all together. And we get to see them and hear about their success. And then when they reach out and they have problems, they talk with us and we get to speak the gospel into their lives. And they know that's coming. Yeah, yeah. When they call us, they mean that's what's the joy.
Henry Kaestner: Oh, that's awesome. I'm sure there's also great encouragement and accountability from their classmates about how they're seeing their faith exercise itself while they're working at the Spurs or the Mavs and knowing that they're part of a greater and we talked about tribes earlier in the podcast, how they're part of a larger tribe that even more important than the organization that they work with in the NBA or MLS Darin. How would you answer that question?
Darin White: Yeah, I mean, that's core to everything we do is we just have a passion for wanting to raise up the next generation a sports industry executives that, first of all, recognize that they're going to have significant cultural influence. Because if you work in sports, right or wrong, you're going to have major cultural influence. And and then realizing as a follower of Christ that we have a responsibility to leverage that in a way that brings glory to Christ. And so we work really hard during their four years that they're in our program to really flesh that out and make them understand. That's true. And it's almost like a life. So it's I mean, you go from being a student and you're just a student, right? And then you get hired. I had a student last year. They got hired by the Texans, for example. And it was remarkable. Within two months of her being hired at the Texas, she was already being asked to speak at a college class at a university there in Houston. And she texted me. She goes, oh, my gosh, you're right. So it's just really neat to see that. And another big part of what we try to instill in our kids is this idea of excellence, because, you know, at the end of day, no one wants to follow anyone who's just average. And so we really, really stress that we want to be excellent in everything that we do. And we do a lot of class projects with big sponsors. Like I mentioned, Coca-Cola, we've done projects with Nike and the Miami Dolphins. And when we show up on their campuses or their fields or wherever, at present, we want it to be the absolute best presentation that they've ever heard, period.
And that's always our goal. And so we really work hard to instill that idea of excellence because, again, as followers of Christ, we should be excellent at everything that we do. And so that's part of what kind of what we're all about.
Kirk Wakefield: Let me add to Darin jump on board here. Sandwiches. One of our mottos is go the Second Mile. Of course, we have a scripture and we've got it on some boards in the classroom. We have seven values that we follow the base, Plasto Mandi's Stanly Leadership podcast. They had six and then we added the seventh, which I think encompasses the other six. But it is go the Second Mile and makes me think this last semester, Daryn, before we had to go to online, I remember asking my class and I tell them, you're going to get an average grade if you do the minimum. You're going to get a seven out of 10 if you turn something in and you do just what I asked. And so then I came in and had some back that a bunch of seven nights ago. How many are thinking about what you want to do when you get out of here? Man, I tell you what, I am going to be average, that's all. Well, OK, but you just turned in a bunch of reports where you did the minimum where us and tell us five things and what you do. You gave me five things. Why not do six or seven?
Is that all you learn was those five things. So I think you have that same mentality for those who are listening. Right. You're always thinking, what's the minimum? Do I want to be average? Gosh, that's boring. Instead, what can I do to go the Second Mile? And that's what Darren was talking about. I think when you're excellent, you're going the Second Mile, not just being the minimum.
Darin White: And to piggyback off that, we talk quite a bit about the Old Testament character of Daniel. If you look at Daniel in the Old Testament, there's an example of an individual who was not a pastor or a preacher. He was a political consultant in a very, very pagan culture, had tremendous cultural influence, and over that 70 year period of time, had great influence for the kingdom. But he did it by being excellent because it says right at the very beginning of the book of Daniel, he was brought before the king. And the king says in the book of Daniel that the king taught him ten times better. He was an outstanding political consultant, in other words, for the king. And so that excellence is what gave him the ultimate platform and to have the influence. So that's one of the ways that we kind of try to instill that.
Justin Forman: It's been great to have you guys on the podcast, one of the places where we like to land and finish. And you guys have already pointed us there is back to scripture. And just to see where God has you in this unique season that you're in is we're in the summer getting ready for a very unique fall that might be coming. What is a verse or passage in Scripture where God might have you that you could share with our listeners? Let's start with you and then Kirk, we'll give you the last word.
Darin White: All right. Very good. So I would say for me, it's you know, I have discovered I've been a follower Christ since 30, 40 years. But just within the last few years, I've discovered this area, what's known as biblical theology, which is looking at the Bible holistically as the meta narrative and have fallen in love with the Bible Project podcast, for example, and some of the videos that they put out. And so that's really not one particular scripture. It's really looking at the entirety of scripture through that lens. And really it's just reignited my faith, deepen my faith in ways I just can't get enough of it. And this on and on it goes. And so if your listeners have if they're not familiar with the concept of biblical theology, I would highly recommend they might want to do a Bible project and check it out. It's some really, really cool stuff.
Justin Forman: That's great. Yeah. We had Jonathan Collins on the podcast recently, just big fans of the Bible project. So it's always great to point to them. To you. Final word.
Kirk Wakefield: I think part of our roles as teachers and their having background and coaching and I'm not quite as much, but but really good salespeople are and good educators are good coaches, which means you're trying to instill discipline or disciple others. So what I think about is that means you're consistent, you're diligent day in and day out. So what I think about is, you know, just your daily walk and Bible study and Bible reading, but if you're one of your disciple, how easy is it today that I'm just saying? Well, I just pulled up this morning from our reading. I've got a buddy who's an executive in the sports business, and each day we do a new version. Bible app rings the New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs, and then we interact with each other. We did this to church. And smaller groups that you can do is a Bible app that you are consistently teaching others, including previous students who accepted Christ while here in church. Darren said the same thing. We accepted Christ while here in the program and then continue on and discipleship. And so we saw that opportunity. And that's the joy really doing that. So the verse that this morning, it speaks to the Psalms 51, 12 and 13 says give me again the joy that comes from your salvation and make me willing to obey you. Then I will teach sinners your commands and they will turn back to you. And it's interesting to me that kind of causal relationship that give me again the joy that comes from salvation and makes me willing to obey you then. So change my will, change my bent to obey you. Then I will teach sinners your commands. But you can't do that without obeying verse. So obey so that I can teach.
And then when I teach and they turn back, they repent, they change their ways. That's what brings the joy of salvation. I mean, there's no greater joy that we ever have than sharing Christ with somebody who didn't know him. Right. And then they say, I want to know him or they know him, but they've gotten far from God. And now. Are drawn closer, I mean, now thats joy.
Justin Forman: Awesome. Such a great word, such a great reminder there to remind us of what it is all about. So we are grateful for both of you guys, grateful for the ways that you invest in the next generation of leaders and sports and the opportunities that they have to influence their teams, their programs or cultures all around them. Just grateful for the time that you spent with us.