Help Me Help You
Mike McCartney and Molly Fletcher Share the Life of a Sports Agent
We know you’re used to hearing from athletes themselves, but today we’re talking to two sports agents for a behind-the-curtain look into the business side of sports.
Mike McCartney has represented players like Kirk Cousins and Kurt Warner. While Molly Fletcher, often referred to as the Jerry Maguire of female sports agents, has represented John Smoltz, Tom Izzo, and others.
We found their take on faith and sports is unique, and we think you will too. As always, thanks for listening.
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Episode Transcript
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Henry Kaestner: Mike and Molly, awesome to have you guys on the show. Thank you for joining.
Molly Fletcher: Absolutely.
Mike McCartney: My pleasure. Great to be on with you guys.
Henry Kaestner: As we love highlighting the stories of athletes and people we see on the field. And that's been the subject of a lot of our podcast. But increasingly, we're starting to look at the business of sports, too. And that's one of the things that I've increasingly been excited about as a business guy myself and somebody who didn't play on Sunday. I love the marketing and the business and the negotiations behind the scenes that make this world of sports come alive. And so this is a special episode for us because this is where sports and business collide. And we know that you both have a unique angle under both sports and business. And so we want to get started with you, Molly. Want to talk a little bit about your background and how you came into this. You are known in the industry as a female Jerry Maguire, and I've got to be careful. A dated movie references here. But Jerry Maguire, of course, the iconic movie with Tom Cruise. And we're talking to the female version of Jerry Maguire. Molly, tell us about yourself. How'd you get started? And what does it mean to be the female Jerry Maguire? I mean, maybe that's the title you wouldn't describe yourself. Maybe that's not fair. But I think most people have a very favorable impression of Jerry Maguire.
Molly Fletcher: Yeah, well, people often ask me, how do you feel about that? You know, and it's just a quick, simple way for people to get a sense for the work that I did for almost 20 years. And, you know, I grew up in East Lansing Michigan with twin brothers that were older than me. Two incredible parents went to Michigan State and had the chance to be a student athlete there, which I am forever grateful for.
So I moved down to Atlanta to find a job in sports. And I didn't know at 22 what that meant. And, you know, I tell the story a lot. I negotiated for free rent in exchange for teaching tennis at an apartment complex which helped my two grand that I came to Atlanta with last a little bit longer. And, you know, I did a couple of different things at the Super Bowl host committee and the Atlanta committee for the big games. And then I got an opportunity to work in a small agency in Atlanta, really primarily bringing endorsement and appearance deals to the couple coaches and the athletes. And we had a baseball player and then, you know, just really leaned into the opportunity to try to grow the business and started with baseball and golf and then college coaches and NBA coaches. And so it was an incredible journey and one I'm grateful for. And so never did football so never had any football players, so never had to get into Mike's world.
Henry Kaestner: And you guys have known each other beforehand, correct?
Mike McCartney: No, no. This is the first time. We don't know each other.
Henry Kaestner: One of the great joys is bringing together people who have God has put in the same world and there's something from collaborating and maybe encouraging and challenging each other. Let me get back to Molly. You are vocal in the community. You're a leader. You've got a podcast of your own. So you're on the other side of the mike now. Give us an overview, if you can, about what you see in the world of sports right now. You're talking to lots athletes. You're talking to coaches. You're in the mix of things. Before we go backwards into your faith journey, we want to get a sense from you about what you seen in the world of sports right now. Where did the trends that you're excited about? Where are the trends maybe that have you a little bit concerned?
Molly Fletcher: Well, I mean, I think, you know, it depends on if you're talking about sports at the college level or at the professional level. I mean, I think we're seeing college level sports really being professionalized at some level. Any of that, as somebody who was a student athlete and I'm super grateful for that journey. It's just an interesting thing to watch evolve to watch. It trains the impact that sports has on kids today. You know, to me, sports is such an incredible amount of corporate life, the things that it teaches us as young kids. To me, it's just remarkably powerful. And I think, you know, unfortunately, at some level, because kids are specializing so quickly, we're losing some of the opportunity for kids to lean into all the gifts of sports. The competitive nature of it now is so intense. And the single focused athlete. You know, you got 12 and 13 year old guys throwing sliders. And what does that do to their arm later? And so, you know, that to me breaks my heart a little bit because I think sports is just a powerful thing. And when we lose all its gifts, because we're focusing too much on maybe short term goals on achievement and not maybe fulfillment, the impact there is significant. And then I think you see, you know, with social media and those things, I mean, I remember so distinctly with my athletes when Twitter first started and I looked at a couple of my players and I'm like, hey, there's a thing called Twitter. You know, I think we need to buy your name. You know, we got to get it right. What do you mean? What is it? What is it? I'm going to tell people what I'm doing all the time. I mean, that's weird. And I'm never doing that. And then, you know, now they've got three million followers or however many million of followers on there. So, you know, there's opportunities that are created certainly for athletes and coaches through social media. And they're certainly really big challenges. And so navigating all that, both as an athlete or a coach and certainly as their agent, it's incredibly important.
Henry Kaestner: One of the things that you shared in your story before is that the first contract you negotiated was in Atlanta when you exchanged tennis lessons for free rent. Have you always been a strong negotiator? And what was the best negotiation you made in the teenage years? Maybe now as you've got a teenage daughter, maybe you can kind of reflect on that, about the ways that maybe you negotiated things in way she's done the same with you.
Molly Fletcher: For sure. You know. Yeah, I tell that story because I only had about 2000 bucks when I came to Atlanta on, you know, 750 miles away from really my two best friends in the world, my parents. And, you know, I needed that two grand to last as long as possible. Otherwise, you know, I wasn't in an environment where my parents were gonna send me money. So I needed to make it last. And so, you know, I think I learned to negotiate really in some parts from my parents who really tried to instill in me the confidence to ask for what you want in life and can do it with class, do with integrity. But to do it. And that that's how we can continue to evolve and grow and potentially even contribute. And so, you know, whether it was in line at the grocery store when we'd be checking out, my mom would have, you know, 20 expired coupons and she would just work the cash register lady to adapt and try to get her to take as many as she could just to come out and be so proud that she saved, you know, four dollars and 30 cents. And, you know, for her, it it was the money, but it was also the opportunity to sort of lean into those moments. So I think they taught me to ask for what I want in a way that is fun and kind. And again on Sanuk and. Yeah. I mean, we have three teenage daughters now 17 and 16 year old twins. And, you know, the good news is I hope and pray that they're soaking all this sort of stuff up along the way. And hopefully it'll help, you know, strengthen who they are and how they show up and contribute, you know, in the world.
Henry Kaestner: Mike, I want to go to you. Many of our listeners are familiar with your dad, Bill McCartney, for our younger side of the audience, he led Colorado to a national championship last part of starting the Promise Keepers ministry, which is a very, very big deal. What was life like growing up for you in the home of a coach? Was there a moment when you decided the sidelines that that wasn't going to be your path?
Mike McCartney: Oh, no, no. You eat, sleep and drink football. Growing up as a coach's kid. At least I did. I love sports. I play football, basketball, baseball year round. There wasn't a day we weren't me and my brothers doing something sports wise, going to every game, going to many practices. So it never even occurred to me to do anything but be in the game of football. To be honest, because I was just immersed into it from day one.
Henry Kaestner: But you chose a career as an agent and having seen your dad's life as a coach and maybe some of the ups and downs of that. Was there a point in time, as you just looked at everything that was going on in athletics and said, I think that maybe I'm going to go a different path rather than coaching?
Mike McCartney: Well, I started coaching in the late 80s, early 90s, and then I was hired by the Chicago Bears as a pro scout in 92. So my job was to sit in a dark room and study football from sunup to sundown, which was a fun life. And then I got married and I wanted to spend a little more time with my wife. So that was a challenge. I started making boys, and I got hired by the Eagles in 98. In my third year there, we played the Giants in the playoffs. We got beat. And I was driving home from North Jersey to South Jersey. My sons at the time were four, two and one. And I started taking inventory with my life. I would not recommend taking inventory after a tough loss. But that's what I did on the New Jersey Turnpike. And it hit me like a ton of bricks on that drive home. I was going to wake up in 20 years and ask who raised my sons because I wasn't home. I would wake up at four thirty in the morning. I get to the office and have some quiet time and I just watch football all day. I get home in time to put the boys to sleep and look at my wife and I'd fall asleep. And it reminded me of my mom's words every August 1st. Football is here. Goodbye, dear. And we didn't see my dad for about seven or eight months. Now he was home here and there, but I didn't see him. So here's your question. I think that was a big moment. And I just felt like I never regretted being a coach's kid. I loved it. I love being around the game. But maybe two generations of McCartneys missing out on their dad didn't make sense. So I started thinking it was probably time to move on. And that's what really precipitated my move to becoming an agent.
Henry Kaestner: So, Mike, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring back something that I remember as a kid growing up. And obviously it's something you live through and I think a lot of us are living through right now. ESPN has been showing a lot of these classic games. And so I've got to ask about the Hail Mary and the Michigan versus Colorado game. Were you there and what were some of your favorite memories from that game or maybe some others that your dad was coaching?
Mike McCartney: I was there. I was working for the Bears. It was a real fun weekend to take my wife. It was her first ever college football game. And she sat in the stands with my mom and grandma. I was on the field on the sidelines, and it was an emotional game because we grew up in Michigan. My dad coached under both for eight years. And so, you know, any time they played that fight song, that's just like seeped into your life, your mind. So it was just really emotional to be on the sidelines with over hundred thousand fans. And the game itself was really frustrating because every time Colorado got something going, we had a holding call on us. And, you know, we get to the goal line. And Kordell Stewart, our quarterback fumbles, were down 12 in the fourth quarter. And it just we kept clawing back. And I do remember we called a timeout, six seconds left and we're down five points. And you could hear somebody from the stands yell out, Hey, McCartney, where's your God now? And course we know what happened next. Kordell Stewart unleashes a 74 yard bomb and Colorado, catches for a Hail Mary. And I'm just like everybody running on the field like crazy kid. And then after the game, I finally see my wife and I said, Honey, this is why we love college football. It's like this every week. What does she know? So those are fun memories, though. That was his last year. Ninety four. So to be able to go in Ann Arbor and win that way was amazing.
Justin Forman: Well, that's great. And as a Spartan fan, I think Molly and I can say that we joined in celebrating with you, watching Colorado beat the navy blue might've had a conflict of interest in the McCartney home, but not in ours. Now, here's the question of the burning to ask Mike. How close was dad to coming to East Lansing? Because there was a season there. I can't remember which coaching change. The rumors at least was close that he almost headed these Lansing.
Mike McCartney: So the day before the last game at ninety four on Friday morning, I'm working for the Bears. He calls me and says, Hey, Mike, I'm gonna resign tomorrow and I might take the Michigan State job. And I'm like, wait, what? And I knew it had some issues but I didn't know it had gone this far. Well when I'm at the Bears, I've got media guides for every college. But then there's no Internet. So I go into our media guides and I see where the Michigan State plays Nebraska in their first came the following year. So we left three and a half hours from East Lansing to get real excited now. And I called my mom and I said, hey, mom, can you believe michigan State opens with Nebraska next year. And she was not in a good mood. She says, I don't care and I'm not going. And I'm like, oh, boy. So then about in the next few minutes, the president of Promise Keepers walked into my dad's office, said, I'm taking my shoes off as a sign that I'm coming from the Lord. You are not to take the Michigan State job. You are to retire from coaching. And he got into a big reason why. And that's what happened.
Justin Forman: Wow, guys, I appreciate you sharing that a little bit about your background. I want to push in to a little bit of just the life of a sports agent. You talked about some that might have just kind of what caused you to. So oftentimes we see the big contract, we see the big deal, the free agent side of things, and even free agency is grown over the years. But just walk us through what is the life of an agent? What is most of your time spent with besides the highlights of that big deal. What is the rest of life and world as an agent look like? Molly why don't you to start us off?
Molly Fletcher: Well, I think Mike can probably attest to 80, 90 percent of it is navigating, you know, their life. I mean, 10 percent is sort of talking to them oftentimes about maybe, you know, their arm slot. Right. Or things like that. I mean, it's navigating what is a really unique and short often window of time. And to me, as an agent, you have to take that really seriously. And these guys make in 10, 12 years, what most of us make in a lifetime. And, you know, the clock is ticking all the time. And so maximizing that window of time for them on and off the field is imperative.
And, you know. So what is it like? I mean, the agency that I worked with, we had about 300 athletes, coaches and broadcasters. I had a team, about nine agents that may end point on the different verticals. NBA coaches, college coaches, broadcasters, baseball players. And, you know, so my mornings would start with what we call news& notes. So I'd get into the office and I'd have my team with Paul. So you can see everything that happened the night before because you can't just know that a guy went four for four. You know, you've got to know because maybe that second knock was in the bottom of the ninth and was the game winning homerun. Right. So you've got to really be in their world. And I would spend every morning sort of standing there being each one of the athletes and coaches that I sort of ran point with and try to get in their head, get their heart. What are they worried about? What are they excited about? What are they anticipating? You know, where are they? What's coming up? If there was a baseball player who was a golfer and there was a broadcaster, all that and then, you know, and then you're worried about obviously they're off the field deals and then the phone rings. You know it constantly. And so guys are calling on the way to the part where broadcasters are calling on the way to the booth so they get there and something's not right. You know, where they had a conversation that kind of made them anxious or scared or, you know, a tour player is trying out a new potter or a new drive or somebody is throwing them a new ball to try. And so they want to talk about that. Or a coach is sad because they're worried they're going to get fired or are, you know, a baseball player calls you because the line up just went up and they're not happy because they're in a seven hole and they're not supposed to be in the seven. All right. So it's just all day. And the phone would stop at about 11:00 at night. And so, you know, it's a 24/7 deal. And my philosophy was to pour into them as much as I could when I could so that when I got home, particularly as my girls were younger, you know, they would honor that window of time that I needed to be with my girls. And they know that if I didn't take the call, it was probably because I was bathing a child or feeding someone or putting someone to bed, but that they knew that I would circle back and get back with them as quickly as I could. So, you know, it's 24/7. And that's why I think who you choose to represent and who you choose to work with is incredibly important. I mean, I always wanted to look down at my phone and see their name and be excited and like them and love them and wanted them at my wedding and wanted them there when my girls were born and, you know, all those moments. And so as much as it's incredibly competitive business and as much as you're recruiting these guys and gals, I think it's equally as important to be selective about who you choose to take on because you're potentially representing them through, you know, injuries and trades and releases and really tough moments. And you've got to love them, whether you're making a buck or whether you're making 100 million dollars and you've got to lean into them and love them and support them. And you had to lean in whether you're at that all star game or whether on the disabled list or one of the injured reserve list. I mean, you've got to love them as much in the big moments as in the challenging moments. And they need you really more went around the DL or the IRR than they do in there at the All-Star Game. Right. When everything's going well. So that's just a quick inside of the window. I'm sure Mike has a different perspective.
Justin Forman: Yeah. Mike, talk to us about that, because, I mean, you're working with guys like Kirk Cousins and others, but you're also working with your guy that's trying to make it in the combine. Talk to us about a little bit of that. I'm also interested in your perspective on some of the things. What Molly said of just the phone was always green and you talked about not wanting to be that second generation of missing time at home. How has that been like trying to balance that with kids?
Mike McCartney: I'll start with that question. I had a personal rule that when I got home, unless it was a player, I wasn't gonna answer the phone. And I was going to try and honor that. My time at home was for my family. And for the most part, I did a good job of that. My kids are grown up. My youngest is going to be a senior next year. And I added a little daughter and course she's a senior in high schools. She's the one I like to do it that right now. But you have to put some ground rules in place. I think as a parent and, you know, I think we're out of my life, maybe it was a little different from Molly's. I'm just in football. And I would characterize it as. Every day is different. You know, there's no two days that are the same. You can wake up with plans and things could quickly change because of a phone call, whether it's from a player or about a player. So being able to think quick on your feet and try to game plan, what's best for the player is what's really important. I agree with Molly. One of the keys is who you represent is so important. I placed a huge premium on representing high character guys, and my litmus test sort of was could I live with my family? And I signed one player early in my career that I wouldn't have left with my family, and it ended up being a bad experience. So it was a quick payday and it wasn't worth it. So I've been really fortunate that I must always represent team captain types. And with that, my life's a little easier, to be honest. I don't have some of the headaches that other agents do. I honest to God, this is my 20th year being an agent and my phone is never ringing after nine o'clock at night from a player, not once in almost 20 years. So that speaks to their character and who they are. And, you know, that's really important. The phone does ring a lot. So, you know, I'm with priority sports. So we have a great staff and we've got our own marketing department and client services. And it allows me to really focus on where I'm gifted. And that's the game of football. And so that's where I try to spend my time is talking to players about their game, their strengths, things they need to get better at work, at interpreting. A lot of time is spent on interpreting what a coach says to him. You know, like Molly said, you know, when they when they're expecting the bat cleanup and they're dropped the seventh, there's all kinds of scenarios that the football is saying, you know, the straight last and say one thing and you know, it can get a player off, you know, kind of out of whack a little bit. So helping them interpret the fact that I was on the team side and grew up on the team side, I think helps me a lot because I can put myself back in on that side and try to get a feel for, you know, what is really going on. The NFL stands for the no feedback league. So trying to get players to understand what their role is, sometimes, you know, an agent can play a role in that. And I try and do that as well.
Henry Kaestner: Tell me a little bit more about what that looks like in the NFL in particular league and what you mean by not being able to get feedback?
Mike McCartney: Well, when I was on the team side, I would go to the locker room and have conversations with players. And I think I developed a reputation as being really honest at all times with players. And so a lot of guys would confide that they didn't understand their role. And it just sort of hit me when I got to Philadelphia and I was the director of pro personnel that, you know, guys really didn't understand where they stood in the team's eyes. So I made it a pledge. I was just going to be really honest with guys, whether it hurt their feelings or not. I was never going to be mean spirited about it. But, you know, guys can respect the truth. You know, they may not always like the truth, but they want the truth. So when I became an agent, I just knew that that was going to be an issue for some guys. And your teams have so many coaches, so many staff members that communicated with the player. Sometimes it's the last thing an organization thinks about. So, you know, I think that's where we can definitely play a role. And I know every decision maker in the NFL. And when I see something that doesn't make sense or what a player is upset, a receiver hasn't gotten enough balls. You know, I can call the appropriate person a team and have a conversation to get the team's perspective. And did go to the player and say, OK, let's talk about this. You know, here's why you're not involved in the passing game like you want to be. Now, let's put together a plan how to get more involved. Some of it's your attitude, some of it's how you handle situations. And those are delicate at times, you know, because you're deal with professional athletes who just. Can't handle the negative comments.
Molly Fletcher: I think that's a great point. Mike, I mean, I think that's one of the most important things, is that a lot of these athletes don't have people around the mental telling the truth. Even their wives won't tell them the truth sometimes. And I think what Mike's alluding to, which I couldn't agree with more, is when they hire you. Some of us you've got to be honest with them. You've got to tell them the truth, because sometimes people don't have the courage to do it, even sometimes their coaches and even some of the people closest to him. And that's why I think as a good agent, you can't be afraid to tell him the truth with love, with support and with teammates when a game plan on how to be more involved in the passing game. That's the gap or whatever it is.
Justin Forman: So what does it look like in a contract negotiation to speak truth and love? For your client, the person that you're representing and the teams that you're negotiating with? What does it look like to have a faith driven or redemptive perspective? In the contract negotiation, part of being an agent?
Mike McCartney: Well, I think the first thing is I'm always going to be honest. I want to have credibility. Anytime that I speak, whether it's with the player or the team. And so being honest is paramount. And yet I recognize that I'm in an industry that is not honest. You know, there's so many games being played by agents and teams and we're kind of seeing it right now with Major League Baseball, just that negotiation between the owners and the players association. And it certainly trickles down to the agent side. So I knew that I was going to always be completely honest and probably my most proud moment as an agent. I was at the combine. This was right before the lockout in 2011. And I'm having lunch with a negotiator for a player. We're trying to extend his contract. And he and I actually prayed together for lunch. And then I made a comment to him, you know, hey, I know I can get X amount of dollars from any other team because I was at the combine and meeting with every other team. But he literally said to me, Mike, if it was any other agent that would go in one ear and out the other because it's you. I believe you. And that just reinforced that being honest at all times is just critically important. You know, having credibility just means the world to me as an agent. And that goes with players. You know, sometimes players think there were ten dollars and they're not worth eight, you know. And the club is offering three. So, you know, those are challenges and you've got to work through them. But from the players side, I think educating them is really important long before a negotiation. You know, the better the player, the more education, I think, because the bigger the money. So we spend a lot of time educating the player on why his market should be where it is and what that looks like. And it's much more than one conversation. So the more you can educate a guy when it actually comes, the better you are. The same thing can go raise. True, when you're deal with a player that you can foresee, the club is going to come to you for a pay cut. You know, players don't want to get surprised. So I just try to have real conversations with guys. Hey, we need to talk about if so-and-so is going to come to us about a pay cut. I'm not taking a pay cut. I understand. But let's at least have a conversation and talk about it. So I think educating the players really potent in being extremely honest. And then the last thing I'll say about the contracts, when you are honest and you've done your homework and you have the facts in front of you, you know, I think teams over time will develop a trust and a respect for the agent. And, you know, a lot of agents, just me crazy demands that just don't make any sense. And, you know, I just I've never tried to go there. You can ask for a lot. You can ask for maybe a little bit more than the player's worth, but you've got to at least know have a reason behind it. And again, being honest and having that credibility helps that go a long way.
Molly Fletcher: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think. You know, to Mike's point, I mean, you got to lead with the facts. You got to start those conversations early because you get some guys that never thought they'd make 10 million dollars. Right. Or fifteen or whatever the number is. And they get that first number, which you as an agent know is low. But they want to grab it because they're scared it's all gonna go away. And if you can show them the comps so they can see, you know, hey, this is really where we should slot em. This is what makes sense to me. It's important. So to his point, I think having a lot of those conversations early on and really leaning into the facts, I think it's incredibly important to to know what matters most to the player because everybody is different. And, you know, I remember we were negotiating Ernie Johnson's contract TV guy with Turner and we were negotiating earnings and radical human being. You know, what mattered to Ernie was, you know, lots of things that weren't normal. You know, lots of guys want to make as much money as they can, but what mattered was flexibility, exposure for his son, Michael, who's severely disabled. You know, he wasn't about grinding it to the last penny. He wanted to make sure there was money left for other guys. And so knowing what's in their head, in the heart of a player or the talent to me is incredibly important. But, you know, the facts are really, really powerful. And when you can help a second baseman understand, here's what all the other guys are making in the National League. You know, you get those phone calls, right? A guy who was, you know, one hundred and forty seven on the money last and he goes out and plays a practice run with B.J., who's top 10 on the money list, and calls me up and tells me that BJ's making 10 bucks and why is he only getting five? Well, becaues BJ is top 10 on the money list and you're not. So, you know, you've got to be able to have the difficult conversations with your clients. Again, with love and with honesty, because everybody else around him is telling them what they want to hear and they're, you know, telling them what they think they want to hear. And so you've got to be able to be sure of that truth teller with love.
Mike McCartney: So true. And you're 100 percent right, Molly. Every player is different. I often feel like two negotiations going on. There's certainly the negotiation going on with the club. But there's absolutely a negotiation with the players. Sometimes it's not. Most times, you know, I remember a player came to me and he's a really good defense player and he said, hey, the club's got to call you and they're going to give you an offer. And I like the offer. I think you should take it. And I just. Well, first of all, how do you know this? OK, because you show it, right? You know, what's the structure? Well, I know about that. OK, so maybe there's more to this story than you know. Thirdly, do you understand where it runs in the market? Not that I just heard a number I like. Okay, let's start over. So.
Molly Fletcher: Right. And then you say yes to that. And then it's on the ticker three days later with another guy that then makes 4x what he just got here and he's livid at you because you take the deal he tells you to take.
Mike McCartney: So there are actually two negotiations going on most of the time. You know, as a guy that represents really high character guys, most of the time, for me, it's convincing them to stay in the negotiations. Let me do my job to give them a little bit more because they are satisfied. There are two things where it's like, oh, my gosh, there's no way I'm going to get that kind of money. You're meeting check. You know, you don't even begin to live in that stratosphere. So that's where you got to get him back to be realistic. But I'm fortunate, guys. I represent. I just get so many good guys that I can be real honest with them and most of the time that's enough, which is really cool.
Henry Kaestner: So I want to do a little bit of a pivot. But before I do that, I do want to cause some attention to Molly's website. Mollyy has some great material in a framework about how to think about negotiations and a five step process from setting the stage through to being willing to walk away. And so many of our listeners are business owners. And I want to just point people to a Web site that Molly's got. I want to pivot back to something about where you guys are in modern day sports right now. And like anything in society, we often hear about the times when things don't go right, when things go wrong more than when they do go well. And we hear the exploitive stories of agents and clients. And I'd love to hear from you all about where you see how very a little bit of a sense of this, but a love for it, just kind of a freestyle riff on you all about where you see the agent profession being broken and what are the opportunities to redeem it. And then also, as each of you replies back to this love to hear about how your personal faith informs the way that you look at the profession and the hopes you have for it.
Molly Fletcher: Yeah, I mean, I think it's broken in different ways, depending on the sport. But I would say at the highest level, it's just honesty. You know, just having an operating with integrity, both with the teams, you're negotiating with them and certainly with the athletes we represent. You know, I've heard agents who don't even tell their players where they are in the deal sometimes or agents that don't lean in and follow all the rules and regulations that exist out there, again, based on sport. It's different. But, you know, at the highest level, I would say that I can snap my fingers and have more integrity, more honesty across the board think would serve everybody.
Mike McCartney: and in football to that point. I think where it's broken is in the recruiting. When I became an agent 20 years ago, we would recruit the players when they were in college and we would try and make a case why we were the best thing to happen to the business of their potential NFL career. And the focus was on our expertize and you know, what we brought to the table. And it's really flipped in the last several years where the focus now is for the player to get every penny possible they can get out of the agent. And so we hear about, you know, what is your package? What are you gonna offer me? Because we have to pay for other training in what comes with paid for their training. Is we going to put him up in a place to stay. We've got get him a car to drive. We've got to get more per diem with a per diem. It has grown exponentially in the last few years. And the sad thing is to me is if a player comes into the relationship and his base and it's solely on what he can get from the agent, it starts out as a broken relationship. So when the player now is in the league and things happen, you know, that relationship is not sound. And I think so many players are not happy with their agents. They don't trust them. There's not a genuine relationship there in, you know, priority sports. We're not like that. We do our very best to make it about the relationship and not about that package. And of course, we have to play the game and give them enough of a package. But we're, as I say, the players all the time. I'm not buying you. I have no interest in that. And I don't even want you to choose me. Even if I give you the best per diem. I want you to choose me because you think I'm the best thing that's going to happen to you for the business of your career, that I'm going to care about you and move us through this journey with you every single day, no matter the highs and lows. And so that's where I see the industry in the football world, free agents being broken. Unfortunately, it's just getting worse each year.
Henry Kaestner: You both have an opportunity working with a lot of young accomplished leaders in society. Leaders on their team, captains on the team and you have these personal relationships where you liken, in some cases love your clients. I would imagine that you haven't gone very far in your industries if you are known for being the over-the-top evangelist, and yet you both have a committed personal faith. I'd love to hear a little bit about how that manifests itself in the relationships that you have with some of these marquee players that are these cultural change agents. What does that look like and how do you approach that?
Mike McCartney: So as I tell my story, when I recruit, you know, I do share the story about that drive from the Meadowlands back to South Jersey where I was living. And in that story, I share on that car ride home where it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was going to miss out on my family. I started praying. I started asking God what to do next. You know, I knew that I wasn't going to go into pharmaceutical sales because that's where I was, just that I knew I was gifted in football and I prayed long and hard to God to lead me. And so I don't try to change my language with players. I do believe if I come on too strong with my faith. One of two things happens to many players, certainly not all, but many. One, they think that this was probably more earlier in my career, but I think they wondered if I would be strong enough at the negotiating table on their behalf. And then secondly, I think they would worry that they were hiring an accountability partner. And I had to convince them that I can be tough at the negotiating table because God caused me to be the best I can be at what I'm doing. And secondly, I'm not your accountability partner. I'm your business partner. Now, over time, that may grow into a friendship. And ultimately, what I've tried to do with players is for almost every player, there is a time of his career where something's going to happen, where I can say, hey, you mind if I pray about the situation before we talk about it? And that could happen many times, you know. So I also just tell my story. I talk about my kids. I talk about going to church, and I just don't change my language. I'm not trying to convince in the same way because I'm a Christian. I just hope it sort of organically they have ears to hear if that's what they're interested in. Yeah.
Henry Kaestner: You all have worked with lots of different professional athletes at the peak of their game and some curious about any reflections that you have and we'll see with you Molly and move on to Mike about the difference between faith driven athletes and those that don't have an act of faith. I think just anecdotally, it seems that believers are over indexed among NFL quarterbacks and in professional golfers. But maybe that's just that. I'm looking through things through a lens of people that I know their own individual story. But I'm wondering, since you've worked with so many different athletes and understand what motivates them and what their mental and their emotional states are, whether you actually do see patterns where a faith driven athlete has certain advantages and maybe it's in some positions and maybe it's in some sports and different than others, but you see patterns that emerge there. And I'm thinking about this through a number of different lenses, but particularly through the lens of the younger athletes. They're listening to this and trying to understand, is your faith compatible with being an athlete? Isn't it advantage to them as they proceed through their career? Is it a disadvantage? What do you see? Mali will stay with you.
Molly Fletcher: Well, I think somebody that's convicted in their faith would never say that it's a disadvantage. You know, in any way, cause that's how they show up and serve and lead and live. But, you know, I think it shows up in lots of ways. Right? I mean, whether it was a golfer and their families. You know, sometimes you see wives of golfers want to travel with their husband to every single tour event. Well, that can be pretty exhausting. And I love my husband a lot, but I'm not sure I'd want to sit in my office every day, all day, watch me do what I do. It'd be kind of exhausting. But sometimes the spouse feels like potentially, if it's not a man of faith, that they need to be there, whether in case they're tempted to make a bad decision or if it's a baseball player whose wives try to travel with them, potentially because they're worried that he might be tempted to make a bad decision because the temptations are everywhere with these guys, particularly candidly with women on the road.
So I think the ones that are strong and convicted and are inside of potentially supportive family systems that support their belief system, whether it's a wife or the parents, find their ability to navigate this fast paced, quick world where there is nine out of 10 guys maybe making poor decisions, they've got to stay strong in their faith to be the person that's making the right decisions for both themselves, for God and for their families, for their two communities that they represent. So, you know, in my opinion, it's a whole lot easier to live that way because they're so clear and connected. Then those temptations aren't even difficult.
I mean, John Smoltz was one of my clients. I mean, you know, you come in from the road, you're on the road with the Braves, you're playing the cards. You walk back into the hotel lobby. There's 20 women in the lobby. I mean, it's unbelievable that never even for John just never even crossed his mind. He's just such an incredible human being, such a strong man of faith. So those moments that were tempting for a lot of guys, you know, weren't for John.
Henry Kaestner: Now, Mike, your reflections.
Mike McCartney: Yeah. So I think the mind is powerful in, you know, professional football players certainly here. A lot of great things being said about them from the outside world, but it's also shallow. And so I think adversity for athletes and how they respond to adversity is so key in life and is a success. But as far as adversity, you know, I think we're a Christian has an advantage. It's Romans eight. Twenty eight. And we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love them, who haven't called according to his purpose. So when adversity hits for the believer, he can take a deep breath and look up and say, OK, God, you know, this is going to work out. And it just allows him to stay in a better frame of mind. And then the other piece that, you know, we always talk about in sports, how do you handle adversity? What do you do when you get knocked down? Well, we rarely talk about is how do you handle success? And we're the believer can handle success is just staying humble in that ability to stay humble and lived in humility. And you can allow that person, that Christian athlete, to succeed for a lot longer because he doesn't let it go right to his head and is not so self focused. So those are the couple things that came to mind about.
Molly Fletcher: Mike. I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, like John's as an example or Ernie Johnson or, you know, Kirk Cousins. Right. I mean, they're so squared away before the success hits them from a faith perspective that they know that it's all temporary. They know that it can go away at any moment. They know it's just, you know, they don't get sucked in and they stay humble throughout. It's incredibly powerful. It's because they were squared away before that success happened. I couldn't agree more that's such a great point.
Justin Forman: Guys, we are so grateful for the time that you spent with us here, we like to close out every episode just talking about where God has you in the season. You shared a little bit about the journey of the people that you're representing and working with and talk to us about a specific passage in scripture. Maybe it's this morning, this week, it's really coming alive to you and speaking to you on your journey. Molly, why don't you start us often and then Mike take the final word?
Molly Fletcher: Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, I think, you know, we're all in this world dealing with a lot of challenges right now with COVID from a societal perspective. So many challenges that are so real. And I just think we're at a time where we've got to lean into our faith more than ever and know that there is somebody in charge of that, that we've got to lean into it and grow from it so that we can serve the people in our world, in this world the very best we can inside of what are very real challenges for so many people at so many different levels in our world today and recognizing that that we're not in charge and we end about as strongly as we can so that we can be a beacon of light, if you will, for others as they lean in to and deal with and navigate some very real challenges in our world today.
Mike McCartney: No doubt, Molly, we're truly facing unprecedented times and I've thinking a lot about social justice issues and, of course, represent many black athletes. And they're hurting. They're really hurting right now. And I think of two verses that have come to mind in the last few days. Genesis 1:27. So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God. He created them. He didn't just create white people in his image. He created black people, brown people, whatever. He created all people in his image. So, you know, I think a lot of people are struggling. I don't want to speak for anybody. It just seems like there are some people out there that are struggling, recognizing that black lives matter. Well, if you see God made you in his image and he made your brown black brother in his image, then it's not hard to say black lives matter because lives matter to God. And, you know, the second verse that, you know, we're in a hypersensitive time and you make one mistake and it's seemingly the end of the world. In Romans 8:1 says, therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And those are just two verses that I've been chewing on and thinking about lately. And, you know, there are a lot of people hurting and they need to know that they're loved. We're all equal in God's eyes. And secondly, that we have made mistakes. Every one of us have made mistakes, but we're not condemned. We have Christ in our heart and ultimately Christians fight from victory, not for victory.
Justin Forman: Such a great word, guys. I am so grateful for the time that you spent with us to stuff that you shared about how God has used you and your careers to be an encouragement to the leaders there in the field of sports in the next emerging generation that they might take up the small things that you guys just expressed a deep passion for seeing God redeem it in the space of. Thanks for being a part of the podcast with us.